In order to educate members to the pitfalls of collecting militaria, SSTk has been very kind to begin this thread, which starts at post #5. Posts 1-4 have been moved from a now closed thread where the request was made to SSTk to try and educate us infidels. Please read the wise words carefully. That being said, he did not answer a PM I sent to him in regard to his 70's era fake Allgemeine SS helmet that I sent to him a long time ago nor answered in the thread. (you can see an episode of Star Trek that Spock is wearing that same helmet, that popularized this fake decal and a pile of old WW2 era German helmets were painted up black and stuck with these decals way back then. Here we are 40 years later and the helmets are being purveyed as authentic which they clearly are not). Helmets such as these are rare in the extreme as they were re-issued and repainted. There are perhaps two dozen known to have survived and they are worth $15,000 for one in poor condition, a top condition one recently sold for $43,000 USD. WW2 German militaria is a minefield (see above pricing as to the motivation for fakers). Fakers now prowl historical forums such as these and pass thier junk off to the passionate yet unsuspecting. Some fellow moderators on GHW also have joined some European historical forums to watch for fakes being passed off. I am not saying Wheaties is a faker, perhaps ignorant to what is real and what is not. There are many collectors and even dealers out there that buy and sell clear fakes, fantasy items and forgeries thinking they are the real deal, such is the draw for these. To anyone thinking of buying anything, I would recommend posting it up on a forum such as Wehrmacht Awards or German Helmet Walhalla, German Daggers also is a valuable resource for verification of edged and ceremonial weapons such as daggers, bayonets and swords. Also some tips to anyone interested in buying anything WW2 era. Blurry pictures are the first sign of a fake as the devil is in the details. Lack of responses is the second sign. And always buy the item not the story. Finally the biggest trick the fakers use, is selling some minor authentic items to gain trust and then passing off more expensive fakes. As a collector these lessons are hard won. Sorry for the long winded reply but eager to pass off any lessons learned to those thinking of buying militaria, especially WW2 German.
As with anything it is buyer beware however the resources are out there for potential purchasers to authenticate items and learn for themselves what is real and what is not. Myself and some other high end collectors are working on science into the hobby/investment including high level digital magnification (to 400x) and archaeometry as well as databased lot number research. This and the free sharing of information on forums such as those I mentioned earlier will help to make sure any new collectors have peace of mind when buying items as we are all history nuts first and collectors second. I am glad to help out here wherever I can to authenticate or help authenticate any items that fall under my specialty and direct people to where they can go if I do not know. Cheers Doug
Wheaties, with all due respect regarding the PM it is my experience when someone is informed they have posted a reproduction when they believe the item to be real is one of skepticism or gratitude. But there is a reaction unless, again, it is only my experience I draw from, the item is known to be a reproduction and being sold or passed off as an original. I have no idea but normally when someone is trying to help someone out who is ignorant of the facts, a reply of some type is the norm on forums such as these. Those that already know the facts, tend to run and never reply. As well please note how I addressed this in a prior post in this thread -- "In Wheaties defence he did not say the items were authentic to WW2 but were simply "Nazi items". " I also said I did not claim to know you were selling fake items in the same post but were perhaps ignorant of the facts. However ignorance is not acceptable as nowhere did you ask if the items were authentic but rather said "make an offer" of "Nazi items" which is not how things are bought and sold in militaria, but rather if you have questions on authenticity you find out first before selling and can therefore make reasonable claims of provenance and or comparisons to known originals so that you can make the claim for authenticity that is genuine. You are posting in the FOR SALE section, and asking people to value your items which you are not representing as real or reproduction however the "Waffen SS" helmet you are clearly stating it is authentic, a piece of history if I recall. I would suggest that prior to your posting an item in the for sale section you do your homework and do not ask your prospective customers to do the homework for you. As far as talking crap, there has been little discussion of your items other than someone wanting to know what you wanted in terms of dollars. I pointed out where they can buy the same pin for $9.99 and commented that the Luftwaffe Enlisted Man's Visor badge also appears to be a post war reproduction based upon the pics you provided. Finally the only other thing that could be construed as "crap" is the helmet you showed off which quite frankly, is crap. The rest of the conversation in this thread has been myself trying to hopefully educate the passionate historical enthusiasts who use this forum about the dangers of collecting and how fraudsters and fakers operate, much in the same manner that was being displayed by your 2 posts. Finally with regard to photographs, the quality of the photos is up to the operator not the camera. The megapixels do not control the focus of the camera nor does it control the aperture settings. That is done automatically and if the user gets a poor result every digital camera made has custom settings and macro functions for closeups and anyone selling something will provide clear crisp photographs of it. Would you buy a house or car, or anything on ebay, with out of focus pictures being provided? No. However this is trick #1 that sellers of bogus militaria will do and claim it is the camera, they are the best that one can provide. Seen it a million times. Not saying this is your intention, but it is a fact of how fraudsters operate and red flags go off anytime I see out of focus and poorly lit pics of militaria offered for sale anywhere.
David, yes a common occurance and ebay is the largest minefield of them all. There was a time where it was a great place to find authentic militaria and war relics, however now it is the worst. The stories that are spun in order to fake items, "the vets daughter" or "dug up in Holland/Belguim/France" or "taken by my grandfather from the prisoner he took", literally the stories are endless. They are usually accompanied by less than perfect pictures but enough of an image is provided where the enthusiastic and passionate potential buyer buys the story because they want so badly to own that particular piece of history they look past the blurry picture and see what they want to see, not what is there in front of them. This case of the faked ME109 part is very common and aircraft parts forgeries are rampant as only dedicated aircraft enthusiasts/specialists are often the only people who can tell by rivet count, paint color, metal fabrication, etc what the original item is supposed to look like. And yes, German WW2 items command by far the highest dollar value starting with SS items, German Unterseeboat, LW fighter pilot and anything to do with the Panzerkorps, tanks, or elite units and down from there. American 101st Airborne items are also being heavily faked since Band of Brothers and British and Canadian WW2 Airborne Denison smocks are also heavily faked. If there is a dollar behind it, it is being faked I guarantee you. Even period photographs are being faked. There are large military re-enactor groups and photos of thier battlefield re-enacting are being ripped off the net, printed and fake aged, and being sold as originals for hundreds of dollars for a few prints. All being done for about 10 bucks and about an hours worth of time. Slap them up on e-pay (pun intended) and your a few hundred richer with no recourse to the seller whatsoever. Finally because of the power of information sharing, forums such as WAF, GDW etc are tracking these guys down, exposing fakes for what they are and ebay sellers as well are having a tougher time. The result, fakers are finding forums such as these to sell thier wares, mostly in Europe so far, but it is everywhere. Sounds like a real horror show but it is not really, if you know what you are doing and willing to invest some time to learn. The hobby can be very rewarding and items rarely devalue in price unless you have overpaid, which does happen (guilty as charged) for that "had to have" item. So it is a pretty sound investment as well
I have been asked by Kitty to start a thread here in Barracks to discuss the pitfalls of militaria collecting, happy to oblige. There are many upsides to the hobby, but it is buyer beware. 1. Buy the object not the story. Unless there is iron clad provenance do not ever buy or pay more for an object that is accompanied by "veteran" accounts. 2. Be wary of blurry pictures. (or in hand, dark rooms = sellers light) The devil is in those details. Unscrupulous sellers will often blame the camera claiming a poor camera, bad eyesight, poor lighting on the quality of the photos. Bottom line, poor photos should automatically equal hitting the delete button. 3. Not many photos provided. Always ask for photos from every angle, all the details, leave nothing out. A common trick is for just enough of an item to look good to be shown, but the part that is key to authenticating an item is left out (A die flaw for example on an award, a key reference point is not shown, etc,) 4. It is up to the seller to prove authenticity unequivicolly (sp?). Not the buyer. 5. The buyer should always post items he is interested in buying unless you are completely confident in your ability to tell real from reproduction, in a specialist forum like Wehrmacht Awards.com, German Helmet Walhalla, German Daggers.com, etc. in order to gain varied and expert analysis. 6. The buyer should invest the time to learn about the item they are thinking of purchasing before making the purchase. Each area is its own specialty and each specialty has subcategories. For example, German Awards you have Wound Badge experts, Iron Cross experts, combat badge experts, etc. This is the same for Allied militaria as well. 7. Never buy an item because the dealer or seller gives you a lifetime guarantee. Many dealers hide behind a lifetime guarantee and it can be difficult to regain your money. Study the item, post the item, discuss the item. Do not leave it to blind trust. Lifetime guarantees are great, but should not be the reason to purchase. 8. Never buy an item where a dealer gives a limited time guarantee such as 3 or 4 days. Sometimes it takes longer to verify an item. 9. If a seller starts putting any pressure on you to complete the deal, walk away. Quality militaria sells. Fakes do not. 10. Be very wary of anything coming out of Eastern Europe. This might sound bad but some of the best fakes are coming out of Eastern Europe, do your homework on these items carefully. Once your money leaves your account it can be impossible to get it back. 11. Find as many reference books on your area of interest and subject matter, they are all there from unforms to helmets to field gear, no matter the army. Study. 12. Network with known collectors. They want to see new people enter the hobby and if you are polite and tactful and respond with gratitude to questions you more often than not will be rewarded with shared knowledge. It is a great community overall. 13. Trust your gut instinct, there is a reason God gave it to you. 14. Price the item out. Many times you can overpay for something that is quite reasonable elsewhere. 15. Finally remember, CAVEAT EMPTOR. Buyer beware! I can post some good reference sites and books next, but off to bed...
A good friend of mine and published author has often said, and I quote, "the hobby has some of the best people in it, also some of the worst". That being said, there are plenty more good than bad, some however choose to be ignorant to facts in order to try to save hard earned money from being wasted on items deemed as reproduction or rebuilt. I did forget the most important item, BE PATIENT. Unless you are dealing on a named item that is ultra rare one of a kind, there will be more of what you seek. Again a very rewarding hobby and pastime.
SSTk I have moved your previous posts to this thread, where they have been inserted in chronological order. Please feel free to edit them if you wish.
Removed some items that would be now "off topic" since they have been moved here. Some good reference books on WW2 German (not a complete list, just mostly what is on my shelves - there is plenty more!!) Helmets- Combat Helmets of the TR, Vols 1 and 2 Tom Kibler History of the German Steel Helmet 16-45 Ludwig Baer (the bible) German Helmets 33-45 Goodapple (others) Stahlhelm Tubbs/Clawson SS Helmets Vol 1 and 2 Kelly Hicks SS Steel - Hicks SS Helmets Hicks/Beaver Uniforms- Uniforms of the Third Reich Hayes/Maguire Camouflage Uniforms of the German Wehrmacht Palinickx Camouflage Uniforms of the Waffen SS Beaver/Borsorello Uniforms Org and History of the Panzertruppe Bender and Odegard German Army Uniforms of WW2 Krawcyk German Soldiers of WW2 Jean de Legarde SS Uniforms, Insignia and Accoutrements Hayes Waffen SS Uniforms and Insignia Krawcyk and Lukacs Uniforms of the Waffen SS, Vols 1-3 Beaver Uniforms of the SS, Vols 1-7, Mollo Insignia- Badges and Insignia of the TR 33-45 Davis German Military Cuffbands 1784 to the present Williamson/McGuirl Cloth Insignia of the SS, Angolia SS Regalia, Pia Headgear- Dress and Field Service Hats of the TR , Shutt The Collectors Guilde to Cloth TR Military Headgear, Wilkins (with Shea) SS Headgear (coming soon) Shea Awards For Fuhrer and Fatherland Vols 1 and 2 , Angolia Standards Deutschland Erwache, Ulric of England WW1, Imperial Germany Imperial German Field Uniforms and Equipment Vol 1-2, Somers Uniforms and Equipment of the Imperial German Army, Woolley Head Dress of the Imperial Germany, Sanders Misc The Canadian Soldier 44-45 Military Antiques and Collectibles (all WW1 Canadian) Taboika DPM a study in camouflage The Collectors Guide to the Waffen SS, Lumsden Third Reich Militaria Lumsden Detecting the Fakes, Lumsden (a bit dated now) Waffen SS Vols 1-5 Bender Allgemeine SS Yerger Postcards of the Waffen SS, Roth/Moonwheel
There is also an annoying habbit of sellers declaring everything to be rare! That pulls the punters in and starts to creep up the costs. It is always worth a search around militaria shops online to see the prices of similar items. As an example, I purchased a spare set of webbing at the weekend, this was battle order webbing for a gunner. I payed £35 for the lot, cross straps, belt, cartridge carriers, small pack and L straps. All dated between 41 and 44. I have seen similar on fleabay going for £100 and over.
