Did Luftwaffe attack Royal Navy at all during Battle of Britain?

This is a question.
I know Luftwaffe first focused their attack to attempt knocking out fighter command, then they refocused their effort to bomb London.

The first part of attempt has clear goal that made sense. If they could take out RAF, they could eliminate threat from the air when Germany attempt to invade UK through Operation Sea Lion.

However, the biggest threat to a German invasion of UK in my opinion would be the British fleet instead of RAF. Ships in English channel would have much needed firepower and accuracy to sink incoming German ships loaded with troops. It was proven that air force (Luftwaffe) alone wasn't enough to stop British and French troops from retreating cross the channel to England.

Didn't the Germans think about the Royal navy as a major threat to their planned Operation Sea Lion? More of a threat than the RAF?
If so, wouldn't they also try to sink as many British warships as possible before the invasion?

Did they attack Royal Navy at all during Battle of Britain?

 

I can't find any record of a Luftwaffe attack on Royal Navy ships in the battle of Britain but someone please correct me on that if I'm wrong.

Yes the Germans thought very long and very hard about the Royal Navy as a threat to Sealion. Their navy, the Krugsmarine, was far inferior in firepower to us especially after the Norway invasion in which they lost several ships. Their U-boats were not designed for the shallow waters of the Channel. They had no landing craft (this was the fundamental weak point in their invasion plan) and the few barges they had were trashed in anticipation by Bomber Command in an attack on Antwerp that summer.

In short, the Krugsmarine couldn't have provided a safe escort for any Germans who wanted to visit us, and the German generals knew it. They had no detailed plan drawn up beforehand as in the case of France or the Low Countries, and they were horrified when Hitler took it into his head to go for an unprepared invasion of Britain.

And Britain knew this too. Just by keeping the main fleet out of reach of the Luftwaffe until it was needed to demolish a German barge excursion to Weymouth or Dover, they maintained the pressure on Germany. This naval tactic is called "a fleet in being", which means the firepower of a fleet exerts an influence on a battle just by existing,not necessarily by being used. The Germans did the same with the Tirpitz when she was bottled up in a Norwegian fjord, using up a lot of our naval power to watch her as she did nothing.

Both sides appreciated the value of British naval superiority in the Channel, problem was the Germans couldn't do much about it. We kept our ships out of range.

 

Hi, what do you mean by the ships were kept out of the range? Were they parked somewhere out of the reach of Luftwaffe? If Luftwaffe could bomb anywhere in UK, does it mean the Royal Navy home fleet ships were not in UK?

I know German fleet were far inferior to the British navy, but even if it's the other way around, it would be dumb for Germans not to knock out the potential threat to their troop transporters before send out the troops transporters.
I mean in a case of (if) Royal navy was the one fleet with inferior firepower and ships, the outcome of a forced landing by Germans would result in all firepower being concentrated on the troop transporters, wouldn't it? If that happens, German troops would take heavy casualty before reaching the shore even if their navy could destroy the entire British fleet. So if it was up to me, I would definitely have tried to eliminate Royal navy before launching any assault.

 

Hi Vashstampede, we could write a novel about this one! It's an intriguing "what if?" situation.
Ok, I'll explain.

The British Home Fleet was stationed at Scapa Flow, where the southernmost tip of the Orkney Islands is just off the northernmost part of the mainland of Scotland. The Fleet had used this natural, protected and isolated bay as their base since 1904. It was the British version of Pearl Harbour.

In July 1940, the nearest German airfield would be one just south of Bergen in Nazi occupied Norway. That's a distance of 480 km in an absolutely straight line. This would mean the Luftwaffe would have to fly 960 km assuming ideal wind conditions keeping them in a straight line, perfect navigation, no detours to avoid detection etc. This 960km is in the range of German bombers like the Heinkel He 1-11, Ju 88 and Dorniers IF they sacrifice a lot of their bombload capacity to take on the extra fuel needed.
The 960 km distance is clearly out of the range of any German fighter, so the bombers would be totally unescorted.

The Germans would think: if the bombers managed to come close to Scapa Flow undetected, the air observation defences would quickly alert the squadrons based in the northeast tip of Scotlandand on the aircraft carriers themselves. I doubt it would be like Pearl Harbour because Britain was already at war and looking with very powerful binoculars for enemy attacks on her territory.
But the real problem with the attack is that the Germans had no armour piercing bombs to sink battleships like the Japanese used against our ships in Singapore. Assuming the raid over Scapa Flow ips taking place amidst an enormous air battle of British Spitfires, Hurricanes and even carrier based Swordfish against the bombers, the bombs that they dropped, even penetrating smoke screens, couldn't actually sink a big ship. Damage maybe, but not sink.
Another problem would be that there were no rear gunners in German bombers, making them exceptionally vulnerable to planes pursuing them after a raid if they had no fighter protection.

In reality, the Germans didn't know we had two secret weapons, radar and Ultra. The attack would have been foreseen long before the Nazis suspected.

In conclusion, yes you could have mounted an attack against Scapa Flow, but the cost would be enormous and the results not substantial.

 

Thanks for the information. I really appreciate it.

So since the Royal Navy was stationed in Scotland, they are quite far away from the front. How long would it take them to get to the English Channel in case of a forcefully German crossing with massive troops with everything they got? Can the home fleet stationed at Scapa Flow make it to the battlefield on time?

If they do make it there on time, wouldn't they be within the range of Luftwaffe even when they are still on the way there?

A few years ago I remember watching a video on TV about occasion German long range bombers attacking the shipping in Atlantic ocean. How are they able to go that far?

Not so long ago I also watched the movie Battle of Britain. It seems the Germans were well aware of the radar. They were even bombing the radar station at the beginning. It forced visual observation to be used on early warning. At least in the movie lol. Was the movie inaccurate?

 

Glad I could be of some use! A pleasure.

That's a good question about if the Home Fleet could set sail from Scotland and arrive in time to attack the German invasion crossing from northern France. I would say no. It would be a distance of 1000 km or so, and travelling at 20km an hour that would be around 50 hours, which would be way longer than the 3 hours from Calais to Dover. And in those days the coal powered ships needed to take a few hours to build up enough steam to get moving in the first place.

So the British would have to rely on aerial reconaissance, German radio traffic, Ultra etc to anticipate the German order to sail, and set off before them. And if they arrived too late to stop the actual invasion assault, their task would be to cut off any chance of the German forces in the bridgehead receiving supplies by sea.
Yes they would start coming within range of the Luftwaffe the nearer the Channel they got and that's exactly why the Luftwaffe was fighting the Battle of Britain, to clear the sky of British planes and thus facilitate their subsequent destruction of the superior British fleet trying to stop an invasion. With the RAF still intact and gaining the upper hand in the Battle of Britain however, the Luftwaffe would have encountered heavy RAF air cover for the Home Fleet as it sped down hugging the east coast of Britain.

In 1974 the Military Academy at Sandhurst ran a simulation of Sealion on one of the very first computers they had, and came to the conclusion that the Germans would cross without too many problems because the Home Fleet was still too far off, and that the invasion would swiftly cut into the English south. But the problem was the subsequent supply of the men and equipment landed in Dover and Weymouth. This was the weak point. The scenario is that the British ships arrive 2 days after the initial landings and destroy German ships trying to move gasoline, ammunition and other supplies to their bridgehead.
The optimistic conclusion of the computer simulation was that the Germans had to surrender their forces in Britain after a couple of weeks. It would be fascinating to see a more updated and more sophisticated simulation to see how things would have turned out.

 

Do you have detailed account for that computer simulation?
In that simulation, how many German troops tried to cross? How many of them landed?

Here is another question. How many ground forces did UK have at home?

I was just going through some details of Battle of Crete. It was not entirely the same but comparable to if Germans launch an attack cross the sea. Royal Navy also had total control of the sea around the island of Crete, yet after the Germans took an airfield, the battle was changed. You know in the end the Germans won as British forces were pulled out.

I very much doubt British forces would pull out of UK even in exactly same scenario, but in the simulation since the Germans successfully crossed with a large force, if they can take control of a few air fields, wouldn't they also be able to fly in reinforcement and supplies just like they did in Crete?

 

Ok vashstampede this is my first ever attempt to insert a link here, hope it turns out ok.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sea_Lion_:_The_Sandhurst_Wargame

If you can't get it directly just got to wikipedia and The Sandhurst Wargame.

What surprised me reading it was that even with the German invasion in progress, the simulation continued to keep the Home Fleet up in Scapa Flow. It just wasn't necessary for anything more than the guns of a cruiser or destroyer to knock out the German barges, so a cruiser/destroyer force were the main defences in the channel. I suppose the big ships would be still up there waiting for Tirpitz or Bismark forays.

All the participants in the simulation, including the German referees, came to the conclusion that Sealion would fail. Although the first wave of 90,000 troops were landed by air and sea, the cutting of supply lines and the destruction of the second wave on the 28th September made defeat for the Germans unavoidable.

 

One thing I don't understand about the simulation after I read it, why the Germans not send in more tanks and heavy artillery in the first wave? The simulation only included such equipments in the second wave, thus limited the German fighting power of the first wave to only "very few tanks and light artillery".

In such important battle, wouldn't the Germans also use the battleships of Bismark and Tirpitz to cover the crossing? Were they in the simulation? Light cruisers and destroyers are no match for battleships.

Another thing I don't quite understand, the source said "the attack went reasonably well for the first 24 hours", then it goes to say about 25% (unseaworthy) barges sunk. How was that reasonably well if 25% of them sunk?

 

The reason they couldn't send in heavy tanks and artillery would seem to be that they just didn't have the necessary transport.
One thing not mentioned in the simulation is that to break inland from the beaches of Folkestone you have to climb a very steep slope upwards, which was different from when the allies invaded Normandy in June 1944. This steep slope would make it very difficult for an initial wave of Panzers to climb up into the British countryside under fire unless these cliffs were secured by lighter infantry before. so they sent infantry first perhaps.
I don't know for sure, I'm just speculating here.

The Germans perhaps considered using their great battleships but, as I said, the Home Fleet at Scapa Flow was in a very strategic point to intercept them coming down from Norway. That was how the Bismark was later finally sunk, by a torpedo from British seaborne planes luckily wedging into her rudder so she could only go round in circles helplessly.
Maybe they considered it too suicidal to pitch their battleships against the Home Fleet with aircraft carriers and nearby air support.

And yes, I agree, a 25% loss of barges in the first wave is not what I would call "reasonably well".

 

I thought Bismark sunk after it was ganged up by a fleet. I watched a special documentary about Bismark on History Channel a few years ago. Sure it was hit by a torpedo bomber, but it said the torpedo caused a fuel leakage of several thousand tons. It slowed Bismark and if I remember correctly. That's how the fleet caught up and bombarded it until it sank.

Anyway, if the first wave German invasion did carry lots of heavy tanks and artillery, they didn't have to send these units in the front. Of course they will be loaded on to the beach, but then the infantry can take the point with tank and artillery support.

If German battleships were intercepted by Royal navy during the invasion, I think the Royal navy will have to intercept them within the range of Luftwaffe. It would have made them vulnerable.

Personally, I think Germans would have had a pretty good chance to succeed if they didn't star the Battle of Britain with Luftwaffe only. They should have just throw everything they got, entire fleet and Luftwaffe to cover the crossing while they are still at full strength. They might not win, but they can deal a lot of damage to the Royal navy and possibility draw the carriers into the battle too.

 

The telling torpedo hit on Bismarck, as I recall, jammed the rudder and cause the ship to circle, going no where fast. From that point is was not much of a chase.

 

Yes, that's what happened R Leonard, she ended up going round in circles the blighter.

It was a very lucky hit to get the Bismark exactly in the only part where the torpedoes weren't bouncing off its superstrong Wotan armour plating. But divine justice considering the equally strange hit that the Bismark (or possibly the Prinz Eugen) dealt the British flagship Hood a few days before. Just as the Hood was lining up her guns and getting into the optimum range, one of the very first salvoes from the German pair found Hood exactly, and somehow penetrated her magazine. Result: massive explosion and the whole port side of the Hood ripped off. I believe only a handful of her crew survived that one fluke shot.

So justice does exist, seeing as Bismark received exactly the same medicine.

I read that even when the group of British battleships were pounding the helpless Bismark at point blank range in the last few minutes, the hits still weren't penetrating that incredible armour plating. Apparently we didn't sink her, rather it was her captain who scuttled her to avoid a more than probable boarding party and capture of the pride of the Kriegsmarine.

 

Yeah, I saw the computer simulation in the history channel documentary about Bismark. The whole battle was put on the screen by computer generated units. They remade the scene of Hood exploded to chain reactions after being hit by a giant round from Bismark.

Well it was silly for the Germans to send out just two ships into areas full of enemy ships. It was even dumber for them to separate the two ships after Bismark was already damaged.

I also read it that one of the British destroyers was sunk by German dive bombers on the way back from the battle that sank Bismark. Why didn't the air support arrive sooner during the battle is beyond me.

 

Vashtampede, the Bismark was just about to get in range of German air support when it was sunk. The Germans didn't have any Battleships available in September 1940. They also didn't have any heavy tanks, their heaviest tank was the 25 ton Panzer IV D. The Home Fleet would have sent only light cruisers and destroyers against an invasion as Admiral Dudley Pound didn't want his capital ships sunk by German aircraft and he expected a diversionary attack to be made on the Atlantic convoys by German capital ships (he didn't know that the Hipper was the only capital ship available). He also preferred using destroyers etcthere were lots of them available and they were better suited to battles with small ships in the narrow waters of the Channel. In addition to the cruisers and destroyers, there were also up to 800 small craft of various types (motor launches, armed yachts, air sea rescue boats etc) that would have attacked the invaders.

Steed, could you please explain why you think the Luftwaffe didn't have any armour-piercing bombs and didn't have rear gunners? This sounds like World War II British propaganda. The Battleship Rodney was damaged by German aircraft at Karmøy, near Stavanger on 9 April 1940 when hit by a 500 kg (1,103 lb) bomb that pierced the armoured deck, but did not explode.

 

Well, the sunk British destroyer couldn't possibly be closer to German air bases than the location where Bismark was sunk, could it? It was leaving the battlefield and it was sunk the next day if I am not mistaken.

I have also heard that German long range bombers were able to attack merchant ships in Atlantic Ocean. So if they tried, they could have at least provide some air cover for Bismark as it was retreating. Bismark was hopelessly outnumbered without getting any help.

 

As far as my knowledge goes,Hitler just wanted to create pressure upon British Gov. to come in favor of .Luftwaffe raids over Britain were also show-pieces tend to be in favor of Axis. Luftwaffe never sent any of its wings to cover Bismark at the Scandinavian region.

Resources were limited in the hand of Admiral Raeder. On the other hand Hitler wanted to dilute strength of Royal Navy by diverting warships into convoy escorting .Along with Donitz's U-Boats,Raeder carried out plans to disturb Britain's North-Atlantic lifeline...Merchant Navy.Bismark and Prinz Eugen were near Denmark straight.Meanwhile Prince Of Wales badly damaged and Hood about to sink as Bismark charged.She also with effect of 9-degree list to port.

Probably now a hidden battle//tug of war of supremacy or egoism started between Fleet Admiral Lutjens(Scharnhorst and Gneisenau) and Bismark Captain Lindemann(a master naval-gunner and superb tactician).He repetadely request permission to destroy Wales(as within range),before to be foundered.But Lutjens not only ignore this request,he separated Eugen and diverted.

The most interesting incidences here at this point were :
1) Admiralty at Berlin was satisfied for Lutjens' success;
2) Germans were enraged by Bismark's damage;
3) Britons were shocked that their beloved warship lost and started for hunting Bismark in North Atlantic.

Here Bismark was encircling by jammed-rudder until a British flotilla sent the final blow.

 

Hi, if the British destroyer was heading south-east then it was heading towards the German air bases in France and therefore could be closer to them than the Bismark. Yes, the FW 200 Condor (based in France) was called "The Scourge of the Atlantic" by Churchill because it sank so many ships or helped them to be sunk. The Condor would fly from France to Norway via the Atlantic sea lanes but the Bismark was out of range of Luftwaffe support when it sank. However if the Bismark had been able to continue sailing south for just one more day it would have got into range of air support and the British may have had some extra trouble trying to sink it. The Luftwaffe was very reluctant to co-operate with the Kriegsmarine and it took quite a lot of work to get them to do anything together. They had a big argument over who should control the aircraft on the Graf Zeppelin aircraft carrier (which wasn't completed). the Luftwaffe wanted to control all Wehrmacht aircraft and didn't want to take orders from the navy. This hindered their development of things like aerial torpedoes.

 

Yes but Goring refused to follow the plan for Sealion which said that he was to attack the British fleet in its ports, especially in the days just before the invasion. Goring's view was that the Luftwaffe could defeat Britain all on its own and he couldn't care less about the other services' requirements. The strange thing was that he would be just about to win when he would change his strategy. He won the Channel Battles with the air combats going his way and the coastal convoys being stopped, but then he changed strategy. He may have been about to start winning the air supremacy/superiority battle when he switched to bombing London. Well he wasn't going anywhere because he had such bad intelligence, he thought he had shot down the RAF twice over as he thought they only had 300 planes and his pilots got a medal for reporting a plane shot down so they exagerrated their scores.