What made Hilter choosing Italy and Japan as allies?

Discussion in 'World War 2' started by vashstampede, Dec 12, 2012.

  1. vashstampede

    vashstampede Active Member

    Germany, Italy, and Japan were the 3 countries in the infamous Axis during WWII. They were allies. However, it wasn't the same during WWI which was merely two decades earlier.

    During WWI, Italy in fact fought against Germany while they were allies. Japan attacked and took over German colony - Qingdao in China during the time Germany was unable to send reinforcement there. Thus, both countries were in fact not only enemies of Germany, but they were also quite treasonous considered the circumstances.

    In fact, when one of the Chinese high official visited Germany and reminded them what Japan did during WWI, Hitler answered that he considered Japan as the Italy of Far East (which means they both couldn't be trusted. He was referring to the Italy's betrayal in WWI, since Japan almost the same, they are one of the same kind).

    Then what made Hitler to sign the pack with those two countries he considered he shouldn't be trusting?
  2. Vladimir

    Vladimir Siberian Tiger

    Both Italy, as well as Japan believed in their own people's racial superiority over others. That might have attracted Hitler.

    Italy waged several wars during the 1930s, sometimes committing outright genocide in some of its colonies such as Libya and Ethiopia.

    On the other hand, the Japanese treated their neighbors (Koreans, Ainu, Chinese & Okinawans) as racially inferior and tried to enslave whole populations. Imperial Japanese went one step ahead of the Fascist Italians, by using biological warfare for mass murder of "racially inferior people" (Italy used chemical warfare, including nerve gas and other toxins).

    There is even a distinct possibility that Hitler got the idea of gas chambers from the Japanese and the Italians.
  3. vashstampede

    vashstampede Active Member

    It doesn't make sense lol.
    Just because Japanese and Italians considered themselves superior, it doesn't mean Hitler agree with them (to think they are indeed superior just like Germans). "Hey, I am superior". "No, I am superior". "NO, you are not superior. I am!"....

    Plenty of other people also considered themselves superior. Most western Europeans considered themselves to be superior to other races. Chinese also considered themselves superior to all other "barbarians" for thousands of years up until Opium War.

    Both Japan and Italy backstabbed Germany in WWII. It was amazing how quickly Hitler "forgave" them and made pack with them. Didn't he even have the slightest worry of the history repeat itself (backstab Germany again)?
  4. Vladimir

    Vladimir Siberian Tiger

    Vash, what were the other options Hitler had? He hated Slavs, Jews, Roma.etc So his choice was limited. Countries like Spain and UK had their own territorial ambitions and would have never allied with Hitler.
  5. vashstampede

    vashstampede Active Member

    Both Japanese and Italians also had their territorial ambitions too. So they don't really make better candidate for being ally to Hitler than UK in the case you think territorial ambitions is a bad thing for being ally to Hitler. Spain, I thought they were weak in 20th century, not a good ally consider their usefulness.

    Why did the Germans not getting along with the French?
    French and British didn't like each other either, they had fought each other for 1,000 years. Then all the sudden they are lovers of each other.

    What was wrong with the Chinese? Hitler ditched the Chinese for Japanese while China was in the process of modernization with the help of Germany. Give another 5 years, China could have enough German trained troops to match Japanese, and give another 10 years, China could have enough heavy industry to supply their own troops with heavy artillery, tanks, planes, ships.
  6. Vladimir

    Vladimir Siberian Tiger

    Hitler wanted to annex France and populate that region with ethnic Germans. He had a strategic alliance with the Vichy regime, but his ultimate aim was to conquer France.

    Hitler hated communists. At the time of WW2, the Chinese civil war was still ongoing. Either Hitler thought that the KMT would lose the civil war, or he thought that the Chinese were fighting among themselves too much to contribute anything to the Axis military.
  7. vashstampede

    vashstampede Active Member

    At the start of WWII, the Chinese communists was on the edge of total collapse. If you know the history of the raising of CCP in China, they never did well until after WWII. One million KMT troops battled 300,000 communist troops for over a year, and forced them (the remaining few) escaped and kept on the run for another year. If wasn't for the Japanese invasion, there wouldn't even be a truce which KMT today still think it saved CCP.

    At the time of the truce, we are talking about almost total control of China by KMT and associated warlords with combined army of millions, and CCP went under with no more than 10,000 troops in total.

    The Germans were helping Jiang Kai Shek to create a strong central army which could allow him not only be able to have total control of China against both other warlords and CCP, but also be strong enough to challenge Japan in the region. By the time Japan invaded, there were only total 8 German trained divisions had finished training and could fight Japanese troops on equal footing. Giving a few years, it could totally change. Then all the sudden Hitler abandoned China and signed treaty with Japan who never even kept their promise of delivery the needed raw material to Germany as it was always provided by China in the past.

    If you have checked into Germany-China cooperation in the 1930s, you could see the main gain of Germany was raw material. They were stock piling them for the war, but the supply was cut off when Hitler ended the cooperation. Japan promised to deliver them but they never could...because they never acquired the regions produced those minerals. It was in fact a loss for the Germany.

    What had Japan done for Germany during WWII? Not much really.
  8. Justyn Mendoza

    Justyn Mendoza New Member

    It wouldn't matter who he sided with. He would eventually turn on one or the other. Hitler didn't just want his race to prospers. He was looking to world domination. He probably used his brilliant strategic mind to hatch some scheme. If there was some type of gain or supply that Hitler couldn't get without their cooperation then this too is more than likely a reason behind his plans. You can also guess that they weren't too kind to each other during the negotiations with what happened just 10 years previous.
  9. blindwarrior

    blindwarrior Member

    As far as the Italian German relationship goes, it's hard not to make the connection that both Hitler and Mussolini were fascists. Hitler actually modeled his oratory style on that of Mussolini's. I would go as far to say that they might have even been friends.
    The Japansese alliance was probably routed in the idea that they would help take care of the Russians. In the end it just ended up dragging them into war with the U.S.
  10. vashstampede

    vashstampede Active Member

    Anti-communist was a strong part of the pack signed by the Axis. I believe they were aimed mainly at the Russians, since there was no other communist country that was strong enough to require them to band together.

    However, I was merely pointing out the fact how Hitler never put the fact of being backstabbed by those two countries in WWI into consideration. Especially Japan, the very same government from WWI was still around in WWII.

    Did Hitler or any other German officials ever raise the question of their(Japanese, Italy) behavior in WWI before/during/after signing the pack?
  11. blindwarrior

    blindwarrior Member

    Hitler or any other German for that matter had no reason to hold grudges against Italy, the regime was a totally different one from that of WWI. They were fellow fascists.
    As far as the alliance with Japan goes, my best guess would be that he only needed them to tie down the Russians. He didn't count on them for too much, this is quite evident during the Pacific conflicts. I can't remember an instance of Germany helping out the Japanese in any way that would make a great difference. Also just because they were allies, doesn't mean they trusted each other one bit. In the long run I think he imagined eliminating them to.
  12. Vladimir

    Vladimir Siberian Tiger

    That is quite possible. And that scenario is applicable not only to the Japanese, but for the Italians also. Don't forget that Hitler stressed heavily on Aryan physical features. Southern Italians are quite dark, and I found it quite difficult to distinguish between the European Turks (from the Western part of Turkey) and Southern Italians, when I was in London. If Slavs were not human for Hitler, then definitely he didn't viewed Italians as human too.
  13. vashstampede

    vashstampede Active Member

    If Hitler thought Russians were not humans, then Japanese certainly were even less humans to him.

    As for Hitler did not help Japanese in Pacific War, I don't think it is because he wanted Japanese to fail or he didn't care. He couldn't. Simple as that. Germany is too far away from Japan, and since German navy was tiny, they had no good way to reach Pacific region at all. Not to mention the fact Hitler always think his priority was in Russia. Even Rommel in North Africa was getting less love because of the Russian campaign. North Africa was so close to Europe, yet the Germans had trouble to supply Rommel's troops. How can they help Japanese at all?
  14. Vladimir

    Vladimir Siberian Tiger

    Mein Kampf is full of derogatory statements against the Slavs. However there is no statement against the Japanese in it.

    Or he might have thought that the Japanese were quite capable of defeating the US / UK combine on their own.
  15. vashstampede

    vashstampede Active Member

    Japan certainly did well at the beginning of the Pacific War. At some point it did look like they were winning after U.S. Pacific Fleet was crippled.
    I understand that after each campaign in the early war, American fleet looked weaker and weaker.
    If I am not mistaken, Japan started the Pacific War with 6 fleet carriers and 1 light carrier. While the U.S. had only 4 carriers. After Battle of Coral Sea, Japan had 6 fleet carriers, the U.S. had 3. After Battle of Midway, Japan had 2 fleet carriers, the U.S. had 2. During Guadalcanal Campaign, another American carrier was sunk, that left 2 Japanese carriers vs 1 American carrier.

    Even though the Japanese lost more carriers overall, the American fleet almost always had less carriers.

    Now, that might look like Japan wasn't losing.

    But once the American industry might started to come up with one carrier after another, (during the same time Japan built another 3 carriers, the U.S. built over 20), Japan had no way to turn the table ever again.

    It was quite clear who was losing when Americans started offensive in the Pacific against Japan.

    I don't think Hitler was unaware of the situation. He just had no way to help at all. Not only he could provide no directly military nor material assistance to Japan halfway cross the world, he also had nothing to spare because of the war in Russia.
  16. tripletaker

    tripletaker New Member

    The same reason why any countries would ally with each other. During the World War 2 era, all 3 of these countries shared similar interests: military conquest and expansion. Both Italy and Germany were ruled by dictatorship and Japan was becoming increasingly dominated by military generals which shows the concentration of power in all 3 nations. Plus, they shared common enemies and I suppose they also needed each other for aid. They probably didn't "genuinely" form an alliance, but it was probably just for their own security instead.
  17. blindwarrior

    blindwarrior Member

    I didn't say he wanted them to loose, I just pointed out the fact that this wasn't an alliance that was beneficial to any of them in such a way that made them the best of "friends".

    Hitler found everybody who was not of Aryan decent sub human, he talked about the Gypsy's and Jews not being human at all, so he didn't feel any remorse about ridding the world of these "pests". In the long run he did see a world where everybody served the German interests.
    Also the main problem with the Russians was that they were Communists, not that they were Slavs.
  18. Vladimir

    Vladimir Siberian Tiger

    No. Hitler explicitly hated Slavs. You can read the Mein Kampf, where Hitler claims that Slavs are more similar to animals than humans. Hitler calls them uncivilized, unloyal and uncivilized.

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