RAAF Shipping details

Discussion in 'World War 2' started by berkyboy, Sep 12, 2009.

  1. berkyboy

    berkyboy Member

    Can anyone advise where I can gain details of the ship my brother embarked on from Melbourne, 27 September 1943 and arrived in San Francisco 16 O october 1943 en route to Great Britain As part of the Empire Air Training Scheme (EATS). He was killed in action 16 January 1945, Ray Berkyboy
     
  2. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    Hi Berkyboy,

    Name details etc may make it easier.
     
  3. berkyboy

    berkyboy Member

    RAAF Shippiong Details

    Hi Spidge,
    The Only details that I have are that they embarked Melbourne 27 September 1943 and arrived San Francisco 16 October 1943-don't know how they travelled from USA to Great Britain, except that they arrived in Great Britain on 9 November 1943-have no idea how they spent 16/10/43-9/11/43.
    He was a WAG in RAAF;His name was 419981 Laurence Collins & was eventually attached to the RAF 101 Squadron,killed in action 16 January 1945.
    The shiping movements seem to be a "war time secret operation"
    Berkyboy
     
  4. Dave Barlow

    Dave Barlow Member

    Put plainly - all WW2 shipping movements were a "war time secret operation"

    I read a biography of an Australian army officer sent to the UK about six months after your brother and his group caught a ship to San Francisco where they then took a train to travel to the other coast from where they caught another ship to England.


    I don't know what you already know about his death so here goes:

    Casualty; Aircraft - Lancaster LM 472; Place - Blauen, Germany (target Czechoslavakia); Date - 16 January 1945

    It was a typical polyglot crew, three Aussie, one Canuck and the rest RAF (I think - going off the service numbers) -

    COLLINS, Laurence - (Warrant Officer); Service Number - 419981

    HART, WARREN ROCHESTER LEE – (Flight Sergeant); Service Number – 429458 (RAAF - also killed 16Jan45)

    KNIGHT, Jack Edward – (Flight Sergeant); Service Number – 429068 (Navigator - RAAF - survived the crash and was discharged in November 1945 - was a POW and the only survivor of the crew. Aircraft exploded in mid-air following a fire, Knight was blown out of the aircraft and survived with severe injuries / burns)

    MCCONIGLE, FREDERICK DESMOND (Son of Mrs. M. E. McGonigle, of Glasgow) – (Flying Officer); Service Number – 179064

    MCDOWELL, JOHN RITCHIE (Son of John and Mary Ann McDowell, of Hillsborough, Co. Down, Northern Ireland) – (Sergeant); Service Number – 1798275

    BECKET, ROBERT JOHN – (Sergeant); Service Number – 1482487

    CONROY, DANIEL – (Sergeant); Service Number – 1881462

    ARMOUR, JACK KARL (Husband of Margaret Alice Armour, of Hamilton, Ontario, Canada) – (Pilot Officer); Service Number – J/43497 (RCAF)

    Oddly enough, Becket and Conroy don't have any NOK detail against their CWGC entries.

    On the casualty files for the Australians are notes referring to correspondence sent from the father of Sergeant McDowell to the families of the RAAF crewmen.

    (Article from:Ulster Star (Lisburn, Northern Ireland) Article date:May 15, 2007 - AN AUSTRALIAN had made an appeal to local people in a last ditch effort to find out about an RAF Sergeant from Hillsborough who died on the same flight as his older brother during the war.

    Ray Collins, who is 74 and lives in Mebourne, is trying to locate family, friends, or acquaintances of Sergeant John Ritchie McDowell (Jimmy), attached to the 101 Squadron at Ludford Magna, Lincolnshire.)
     
  5. Dave Barlow

    Dave Barlow Member

    I forgot to mention that your brother's service file is OPEN status which means that if you contact the National Archives of Australia and request it to be scanned and loaded to their website for anyone to read it will only cost you around $20 and take a few weeks to occur.

    His casualty file is already loaded, which is where I got all of my info from. His service file will most probably have the details on which ships were used to move him to the UK (plus various other info).


    I notice in your query you keep saying "they" - do you have the details on other personnel who travelled with your brother to the UK? If so, post those details so I can check to see if the movement records are available for them.
     
  6. berkyboy

    berkyboy Member

    Thanks Dave, for you help & information.
    I have all the details of the crew, and have been able to contact most of their families (been searching for info for about 11 years, the last 4 by computer-which I'm really not "flash hot" on) the missing crew members families are R.J. Becket, (Unable to trace) & D. Conroy (Possibly from Dublin). John Knight was taken POW,and died in 1999-I have met one of his sons on a recent trip to Sydney As a detective, I "don't have many clues". I have Laurie's Service File (It only says embarked Melb. & date of arrival San Francisco) He spent from16/10/43 in USA (or Canida), and arrived in UK 9/11/43 & 11PDRC 10/11/1943. I have applied for his Casualty file.
    I have no idea who he was with on the journey to UK, but just used the royal "they".
    The NAA web site is a difficult one to follow (for me)- I live i n Melbourne.
    Thanks Dave, Berkyboy (Ray)
     
  7. Dave Barlow

    Dave Barlow Member

    National Archives of Australia

    Ray - not wanting to teach you how to suck eggs, but the Casualty file you are waiting for is already freely available to be read online, along with the Casualty file for HART.

    The simplest way to read them is to go to the National Archives of Australia website - National Archives of Australia and click on "Record Search" in the top RH corner. Then in the middle of the page should appear "Search Now as a guest" - click on that and a new page will open with "General Search" at the top and in the first open box type in your Brother's service number only and press the SEARCH button down on the left.

    The next page just tells you how many files match the number (5 in this case, of which 4 refer to your Brother) - press "Display" to get to the actual file headers. Then click on the button that says "View digital copy" next to either of the two casualty files.

    Use the arrow buttons to go through the file and use the "enlarge" option if something is hard to read.

    I reckon the best part about having the files online is that you can easily get help to translate terms and acronyms etc from people in any part of the world.
     
  8. berkyboy

    berkyboy Member

    Dave-Thank you unravelling the mysteries of National Archives web site-I really don't mind being "taught how to suck eags" wen it is explained to me in such simple terms. I found some very interesting items, and sometimes very desturbing ones, in the casualty file.Even though I have attempted previously, this is the first tim that I have been able to "get" information from the site. I also accessed Warren Hart's file, and found several details that wern't in my brother, Laurie's, file.The only problems that I have are, 1No details of the ship,& 2.No further details on the missing families of Bob Becket or Dan Conroy.
    hank you for your tremendous assistance.
    Ray
     
  9. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    Hi Ray,

    An interesting website which states that the US destroyed all information on Troop Ship sailings in 1951.

    This may give you a clue and there is an email to a crew member of the ship.

    43-09-25​
    San Francisco
    CA​
    West Point
    (AP23)
    7,979 passengers​
    sailed alone​
    Sydney,
    Australia​
    43-10-10​
    West Point crewman
    W. McLain

    From this page:

    1943 Troop Ship Crossings - July to December

    Searched San Francisco. Allow sailing time Melbourne to Sydney and it may match.

    Left New York?

    Arrival date does not match however it could have sailed on from Wales!!!

    43-10-10​
    New York,
    NY
    (Brooklyn Army Base)​
    Robin Sherwood
    604th Engineer Camouflage Battalion (472 officers & enlisted men)​
    In convoy (number unknown)​
    Cardiff,
    Wales,
    United Kingdom​
    43-11-06​
    Joseph Walter Watson
    (who was on board as a member of the 3rd Platoon, Company B)​
     
  10. liverpool annie

    liverpool annie New Member

    Hi Ray !

    I was going to ask you where you got your dates from ...... I've been in touch with the US archives to see if we could find out from this end .... there was a big fire in St Louis that destroyed thousands of military records but I talked to the Archivist in Maryland and he tried but couldn't match up your dates on the records he has !! .... he asked me where you found them ... but I couldn't tell him ..... so I told him I'd get back to him !

    Now I just read that Spidge can't match them up either !

    If you can tell us where you found them - maybe we can take another look !

    Annie :)
     
  11. berkyboy

    berkyboy Member

    Hi Annie-I got those dates from my brother's service record-which states "Embarked Melbourne 27/9/1943". "Disembarkerd San Francisco 16/10/1943". The next entry is "UK 9/11/1943"
    On his "Conduct" sheet, there is an entry showing "Fort (Or Port) McDowell" dated 18/10/1943, so I guess he was in US from 16/10/1943 till his departure from ? to Uk on ?- arriving in UK at ? on 9(/11/1943. The next entry is11PDRC 10/11/1943
    It is possible that the ship may have gone via Sydney on the way- which would have made the Ex Sydney date a few days later
    Other than this,I have not been able to get any further information on shipping or "troop movements"
    Thanks

    Berkyboy (Ray)
     
  12. Dave Barlow

    Dave Barlow Member

    Shipping details

    Hi all - don't want to be picky but the way I read this, the boat is going the wrong way (San Francisco to Australia)

    43-09-25
    San Francisco
    CA
    West Point
    (AP23)
    7,979 passengers
    sailed alone
    Sydney,
    Australia
    43-10-10
    West Point crewman

    This is borne out by the following google book (Chandris liners) page -

    The Chandris Liners and Celebrity ... - Google Books

    (fourth hit on Google search for (september 1943 ship melbourne)
     
  13. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    Hi Dave,

    You can be picky. I noticed it last night and forgot to edit it. I thought I may pick up something else from the site but to no avail.

    "I told you I go to sleep over the computer."

    Cheers

    Geoff
     
  14. Dave Barlow

    Dave Barlow Member

    Shipping details - wrong direction

    However, your post put me onto the Google books search which gave me the Chandris liners hit. This is turn led me to another of Peter Plowman's excellent works with the catchy title of "Across the Sea to War" ("Australian and New Zealand Troop Convoys from 1865 through Two World Wars to Korea and Vietnam"). I had only returned this book to my local library a few weeks ago as I was using it to look into the movements of a friend of mine. I borrowed it again this morning.

    Most of the info isn't about troop convoys per se, but rather troop movements by ship. One of the chapters of around 30 pages is titled "Airmen at Sea" and this provides a bit of background info, plus some of the ships involved and the method of use of shipping. It also has some anecdotes from some of the airmen that undertook voyages.

    As I guessed previously, the preferred method for most of the war was to send airmen across to San Francisco on fast troop ships (converted civil liners). From there they caught trains, either straight to Halifax in Canada and onto another ship to the UK, or to a Canadian airfield for aircrew training and onwards on completion, or to New York. Those that went via NY were billeted at Fort Hamilton in Brooklyn.

    All very good info and I would suggest trying the local library to see if they have a copy (or will get one in on inter-library loan - another greatly underappreciated resource we enjoy. Normally it's either free or costs a nominal amount to utilise).

    I will try to see if any of the ships they name as being used regularly show up as having any movements that match Ray's brother's. Peter Plowman is an Australian and if all else fails maybe we should track him down to see what his voluminous files contain on the timeframe.


    PS - Spidge, this would probably explain how a RAAFie came to be buried in San Francisco
     
  15. berkyboy

    berkyboy Member

    Hi Annie,
    I thought that I replied to you, but obviously mucked it up (not the greatest operator) so I will try again.
    -I got those dates from my brother's service record-which states "Embarked Melbourne 27/9/1943". "Disembarkerd San Francisco 16/10/1943". The next entry is "UK 9/11/1943"
    On his "Conduct" sheet, there is an entry showing "Fort (Or Port) McDowell" dated 18/10/1943, so I guess he was in US from 16/10/1943 till his departure from ? to Uk on ?- arriving in UK at ? on 9(/11/1943. The next entry is11PDRC 10/11/1943 It is possible that the ship may have gone via Sydney on the way- which would have made the Ex Sydney date a few days later Other than this,I have not been able to get any further information on shipping or "troop movements"
    Thanks
     
  16. liverpool annie

    liverpool annie New Member

    I found one snippet ..... :)

    Bournemouth was the location of 11 PDRC (Personnel Despatch and Receiving Centre) which was the receiving station for RAAF aircrew arriving in the UK - the RCAF used the same location
     
  17. liverpool annie

    liverpool annie New Member

    And heres another ...

     
  18. liverpool annie

    liverpool annie New Member

    A bit more ...

     
  19. Dave Barlow

    Dave Barlow Member

    Which ship - Australia to San Francisco?

    Reading through the book I mentioned previously offered up four ships that were used regularly in 1942/43 for the movement of airmen to the states for onward transport. They were the "Awatea", the "Tasker H Bliss", the "Mariposa" and the "Mount Vernon:

    I couldn't find a great deal on the movements on the first two in the time we are looking at and Mariposa was going the wrong way but the Mount Vernon looked promising.

    I could work out where it was a month or so either side of Sep/Oct 1943 but I couldn't get a fix on it's movements when we really wanted them. It could have had time to do a run to and from Australia.

    Anyway, that is my choice for the ship used to moved Ray's brother until I get some more info to prove or disprove my theory.......
     
  20. Hugh

    Hugh New Member

    Interesting thread.
    AWATEA lost 11/11/42 so based on the dates already known rule her out.
    TASKER H. BLISS lost 12/11/42 rule her out.
    MOUNT VERNON dept Auckland Jul 1943 - Arrived San Fransisco Aug 26th 1943. It is possible that this ship could have taken him to the UK - a check of her movement card the only realistic way to be sure.
    Regards
    Hugh
     

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