Black Thursday 16th Dec 1943

Discussion in 'World War 2' started by Gage, Jan 10, 2009.

  1. Gage

    Gage New Member

  2. Adrian Roberts

    Adrian Roberts Active Member

    Very interesting, I've just spent a long time reading this.

    There's a saying among airmen: "The only worse than being down here wishing you were up there, is being up there wishing you were down here" - and that must have been very true for those men trying desperately to see the runway in the fog, with fuel running low.
     
  3. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    Thanks for posting Gage.

    Just checking my database and there were 44 Aussie lads who were killed and buried/memorialised that night at many cemeteries.

    Need to do some researching to find which aircraft they were on.

    17 of which were buried at Cambridge.

    1 Ancona Italy

    3 Berlin War Cemetery

    7 Netherlands - (Various)

    4 Reichswald Forest

    10 at Runnymede

    2 in Australia
     
  4. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    A little research through lost bombers shows that 67 aircraft were lost 16/17 December 1943.

    57 Lancaster - Berlin
    3 Stirling - Gardening
    7 Halifax - SOE
     
  5. Gage

    Gage New Member

    There was only three airfields operating FIDO, I live just down the road from one of those airfields:-
    http://www.fiskertonairfield.org.uk/

    I thought the figure for the book blurb looked too high. Maybe not.
     
  6. Gage

    Gage New Member

    7 for SOE is suprising, they had a very bad night. Would like more info on that, please, anyone.
     
  7. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    Gage: Only six Halifax (SOE) losses - Sure there was seven at first count.

    Lost bombers may not have all losses.

    My 17 for Cambridge represents only lost Aussies

    Here is the info on the SOE flights.

    Halifax LK899 Information

    Type Halifax Serial Number LK899 Squadron 161 X1D MA-T Operation SOE Date 1 16th December 1943 Date 2 17th December 1943
    Further Information

    "Serial Range LK890 - LK932. 43 Halifax Mk.V. Part of a batch of 480 HP Halifax Mk.V/111.LK890-LK932; LK945- LK976; LK988-LK999; LL112-LL153; LL167-LL198; LL213-LL258; LL270- LL312; LL325-LL367; LL380-LL423; LL437-LL469; LL481-LL521; LL534- LL542 Mk.V. LL543-LL559; LL573-LL615 Mk.111. Delivered by Rootes Securities Ltd. (Speke) between 18Jul43 and 30Sep43. LK899 was one of three 161 Sqdn Halifaxes lost on this night on three separate operations. See: DK206; LL120. Airborne 2034 16Dec43 from Tempsford on OPERATION WHEELWRIGHT 37. A report, written from memory as the aircraft logs were lost when the aircraft crashed at 0525 in the River Debden. Professor M.Gaskin,who was the Flight Engineer in LK899 at the time of the crash, provided the following. The aircraft was first directed to Little Staughton, which had FIDO, but the conditions were equally difficult and they were sent to Woodbridge joining the circuit number 4 or 5. It was bright moonlight above unbroken cloud. The first aircraft down broadcast a 'Gee'fix from the end of the runway. Those ahead just went off the air one by one as they were called down. Control told Harborow the cloud base was 200 feet and that they could safely descend to that height anywhere in the locality. Everybody took up their landing positions, Gaskin beside the pilot, the Navigator, F/O McMaster remained in the nose, to home them on 'Gee'. They circled out to sea and broke cloud at 200 feet. Looking up as they crossed the coast Gaskin saw what appeared to be a large white post looming ahead. It was one of the masts of the Bawdsey Radar station. This they struck with their port wing taking away the port outer engine and the whole outboard section of the wing, slewing the aircraft to port. The pilot opened up the port engine and the aircraft levelled up and then they stopped surrounded with water. They had 'belly landed' in the mud on the south side of the River Debden. Gaskin says he felt no impact. The crew evacuated the wreck, Harborow needing assistance. When it was realised the Navigator was missing Gaskin and Charlton, the W/Op, went back inside the aircraft via the astro-hatch to look for him, they failed to find him. He was found in the water 20-30 minutes later by a boatman having arrived from Bawdsey landing stage. The boatman took him, Gaskin and Charlton to the station Sick Quarters at RAF Bawdsey. In spite of two Medical Officers trying to resuscitate him McMaster did not regain consciousness. F/O McMaster DFM, was buried at Colchester F/O D.R.Harborow DFC Inj Sgt Gaskin F/O W.F.McMaster DFM KIA Sgt H.C.Walton Inj P/O Charlton Sgt Whyte Sgt Tweedie "
     
  8. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    Halifax LW280 Information

    Halifax LW280 Information

    Type Halifax Serial Number LW280 Squadron 138 X1D NF-K Operation SOE Date 1 16th December 1943 Date 2 17th December 1943
    Further Information

    "Serial Range LW259 - LW301. 43 Halifax Mk.11. Part of a batch of 360 HP61 Halifax Mk.B11/B111. LW223-LW246; LW259- LW301; LW313-LW345 (100) B.11; LW346-LW348; LW361-LW397; LW412- Lw446; LW459-LW481; LW495-LW522; LW537-LW559; LW572-LW598; LW613- LW658; LW671-LW696; LW713-LW724. Delivered by English Electric Co. (Salmesbury & Preston) between 7Sep43 and 2Oct43. LW280 was one of three 138 Sqdn Halifaxes lost on this night on separate operations. Airborne 2005 16Dec43 from Tempsford on OPERATION MARC 1. Unable to land on return the crew was ordered to abandon, the aircraft crashing into the sea off Harwich. Four lives were lost. The four bodies were eventually recovered. F/S T.M.Thomas sgt T.B.Hawkes KIA sgt J.Lynch KIA Sgt R.Marshall KIA Sgt J.J.Hannah KIA Sgt J.A.Vick Sgt J.K.K.Vincent "
     
  9. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    Halifax LL115 Information

    Halifax LL115 Information

    Type Halifax Serial Number LL115 Squadron 138 X1D NF-A Operation SOE Date 1 16th December 1943 Date 2 17th December 1943
    Further Information

    "Serial Range LL112 - LL153. 42 Halifax Mk.V. part of a batch of 480 HP Halifax Mk.V/111. LK890-LK932; LK945- LK976; LK988-LK999; LL112-LL153; LL167-Ll198; LL213-LL258; LL270LL312; LL325-LL367; LL380-LL423; LL437-LL469; LL481-LL521; LL534-LL542 Mk.V. LL543-LL559; LL573-LL615 Mk.111. Delivered by Rootes Securities Ltd (Speke) between 6Nov43 and 12Dec43. LL115 was one of three 138 Sqdn Halifaxes lost on this night on three separate operations. See: LW280; LL119. Airborne 2030 16Dec43 from Tempsford on OPERATION DETECTIVE 3, a target in the hills roughly 25 km SE of Carcassone, should have dropped twelve containers and five packages. They had been in the air 9.44 hours when the Halifax crashed at Capel Green attempting to land at RAF Woodbridge at 0530. F/S J.G.A.Watson KIA Sgt N.M.Gillis RCAF KIA Sgt J.R.Hoddinott KIA P/O J.Pearcey RAAF Inj Sgt H.D.King KIA Sgt G.Osborne KIA Sgt I.Scaellenberg Inj Sgt W.F.Sutherland Inj There is also a report published in 'Agents by Moonlight' (Freddie Clark) that of the eight man crew on LL115 there was only one survivor. Awaiting clarification. "
     
  10. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    Halifax LL119 Information

    Halifax LL119 Information

    Type Halifax Serial Number LL119 Squadron 138 X1D NF-L Operation SOE Date 1 16th December 1943 Date 2 17th December 1943
    Further Information

    "Serial Range LL112 - LL153. 42 Halifax Mk.V. Part of a batch of 480 HP Halifax Mk.V/111. LK890-LK932; LK945- LK976; LK988-LK999; LL112-LL153; LL167-Ll198; LL213-LL258; LL270- LL312; LL325-LL367; LL380-LL423; LL437-LL469; LL481-LL521; LL534- LL542 Mk.V. LLLL543-LL559; LL573-LL615 Mk.111. Delivered by Rootes Securities Ltd. (Speke) between 6Nov43 and 12Dec43. LL119 was one of three 138 Sqdn Halifaxes lost on this night on three separate operations. See: LW280; LL115. Airborne 2045 16dec43 from Tempsford on OPERATION WHEELWRIGHT 36. Having completed the operation, returned to base was unable to land due to weather conditions and the crew abandoned the Halifax which crashed into the sea off Felixstowe. No injuries. F/O R.W.Johnson Sgt E.Gibbons P/O H.G.Vincent Sgt L.S.Manson RCAF Sgt D.Stuart P/O K.N.James Sgt W.A.Bellman RCAF "
     
  11. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    Halifax DK206 Information

    Halifax DK206 Information

    Type Halifax Serial Number DK206 Squadron 161 X1D MA-V Operation SOE Date 1 16th December 1943 Date 2 17th December 1943
    Further Information

    "Serial range DK165 - DK207. 43 Halifax Mk.V. Part of a batch of 150 HP Halifax Mk.V. DJ980-DJ999; DK114-DK151; DK165-DK207; DK223-DK271. Delivered by Fairey Aviation (Stockport) between 10Apr43 and 4Jun43. DK206 was one of three 161 Sqdn Halifaxes lost on this night on three separate operations. See: LK899; LL120. Airborne 2037 16Dec43 from Tempsford on OPERATION WHEELWRIGHT 50. they set course for Angoul_me and in the target area met with high patchy, rain showers and thick fog on the ground. These conditions forced an early return and whilst attempting to land at RAF Woodbridge crashed 0505 in Tangham Forest near Capel St.andrew. The two French agents escaped unscathed. F/L S.N.Gray KIA F/S P.A.Fry KIA F/O L.H.Thomas KIA P/O Shine Inj F/O Craven Inj Sgt Betts Inj "
     
  12. spidge

    spidge Active Member

    Halifax LL120 Information

    Halifax LL120 Information

    Type Halifax Serial Number LL120 Squadron 161 X1D MA-W Operation SOE Date 1 16th December 1943 Date 2 17th December 1943
    Further Information

    "Serial Range LL112 - LL153. 42 Halifax Mk.V. Part of a batch of 480 HP Halifax Mk.V/111.LK890-LK932; LK945- LK976; LK988-LK999; LL112-LL153; LL167-LL198; LL213-Ll258; LL270- LL312; LL325-LL367; LL380-LL423; LL437-LL469; LL481-LL521; LL534- LL542 Mk.V; LL543-LL559. Delivered by Rootes Securities Ltd (Speke) 6Nov43 and 12Dec43. LL120 was one of three 161 Sqdn Halifaxes los on this night on three separate operations. See: DK206; LK899. Airborne 2115 16Dec43 from Tempsford to fly a cargo drop on OPERATION WHEELWRIGHT 47. They went down to Angoul_me and in the target area met with high patchy cloud, rain showers and thick fog cvered the ground. There was no response on 'Rebecca' from the target or from two special 'Eureka' beacons that were set up in this area. On the way back they flew over a well lit aerodrome, SE of Thouars (35 km south of Saumur) where night flying was taking place - 'No action developed'. With bad weather at base and at the two diversions, Swinderby and Woodbridge, Caldwell decided to bale his crew out in the Spilsby area at 0545. All landed safely (including their pet Fox terrier). The Navigator broke his ankle. The aircraft crashed into the sea near Skegness after they had been airborne 8.30 hours. W/O W.A.Caldwell Sgt Mottison F/S Morris Inj Sgt R.F.Philp F/S Wilson Sgt Grant Sgt Matthews Sgt Snell "
     
  13. Kyt

    Kyt Άρης

    From The Bomber Command Losses


    So one needs to differentiate between those lost operationally over Europe and those lost due to the weather when trying to land back at base
     
  14. Kyt

    Kyt Άρης

    The SOE aircraft:

    Halifax Mk V LL119 NF-L 138 Sqdn
    T/O Tempsford 2045 hrs crew baled out over East Anglia with aircraft falling into sea off Felixstowe due to fog bound airfields on returning from Operation HEELWRIGHT 36, France. Crew safe

    Halifax Mk II LW280 NF-K 138 Sqdn
    T/O 20.05 fromTempsford on OPERATION MARC 1. Unable to land on return due to fogbound airfields the crew was ordered to abandon, the aircraft crashing into the sea off Harwich. Four lives were lost. The four bodies were eventually recovered.

    Halifax Mk V LL115 NF-A 138 Sqdn
    T/O 2030 from Tempsford on OPERATION DETECTIVE 3, a target in the hills roughly 25 km SE of Carcassone, should have dropped twelve
    containers and five packages. They had been in the air 9.44 hours when the Halifax crashed into trees at Capel Green attempting to land in fog at RAF Woodbridge at 0530.

    Halifax Mk V LK899 MA-T 161 Sqdn
    T/O Tempsford 2034 hrs On return from unsuccessful Operation WHEELWRIGHT 37, France aircraft diverted due to poor weather conditions and hit wooden pylon near Woodbridge airfield. Wing damaged and aircraft spun around and crashlanded 0525 hrs on mudbank of river Debden off Bawdsey

    No mention of the other two in the list:
    http://harringtonmuseum.org.uk/Aircraft lost on Allied Forces Special Duty Operations.pdf
     
  15. Gage

    Gage New Member

    Thanks Geoff and Kyt. I didn't realise that they were making so many drops at that time of the war.
     
  16. David Layne

    David Layne Active Member


    Also "Fire By Night" by Jennie Gray who is also the website author.

    Fire by Night: The Dramatic Story of One Pathfinder Crew and Black Thursday, 16/17 December 1943: Jennie Gray: Amazon.co.uk: Books
     
  17. David Layne

    David Layne Active Member

  18. In Martin Middlebrook's "The Berlin Raids", he covers this terrible tragedy extensively in chapter 8. The raid had good results and minimal losses on operations, but with the losses over England, the loss total came to 12.2 percent for the Lancasters. I also think that I read where losses over the UK were not officially classified as a "combat loss" and not reported as such.

    If you've not read this book, check it out.
     
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Member

    For Gage: SOE:

    Flt Lt James McAllister, MCBRIDE
    Service No: 113888 Service: RAF
    Trade/Branch: Pilot Date Enlisted: 12 Dec 1940
    Squadron(s): 161 Sqn
    Station/Unit/Ship: RAF Tempsford
    Group: 3 Command: SOE
    Nationality: Trinidad Enlisted at: UK
    Disposal: KIA Age 25 yrs Date Died: 17 Dec 1943
    Aircraft 1: Blenheim/?Wellington
    Aircraft 2: Mosquito
    Aircraft 3: Lysander LRV9674
    Feb 43 promoted to FO. 1st Tour Wellingtons; 2nd Tour Mosquitoes; 3rd Tour Lysanders - Spec Ops. Crashed while landing in bad weather (heavy fog) at 0353hrs on 17 Dec 1943 at RAF Tangmere. He had been on special operations dropping agents in occupied France along with another Lysander LRV 9367 flown by FO Hankey who crashed at 0402hrs. Both pilots lost their lives.
    Buried At: Chichester Cemetery, Sussex
    Grave/Memorial : Square 115, Corner of E Plot, Grave 24
    Next of Kin: Son of Donald and Jean W. McBride, of Port of Spain, Trinidad.
    Educated at : QRC
    Source(s): Trinidad Guardian 12 Mar 1943 from West India Committee Circular for February 1943: Promotions:To Flying Officer - P O J M McBride, cwgc
     
  20. Gage

    Gage New Member

    Thanks Jerome.
     

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