Whilst looking for some information I came across this site. Is pretty good: Caribbean aircrew in the RAF during WW2 » Home
Interesting, but it does not always specify the race of these men. For instance, Alexander Cunningham from Guyana was born in 1888, was an airship pilot with the RNAS in WW1, and became an Air Commodore. I think with this record it was highly unlikely that he was black. On one level of course, you could say it doesn't matter, but if you are interested in how difficult it was for non-white people to join RAF and become aircrew, you would need to know how many of the men listed on the site were black.
I agree, Adrian, that it would be fantastic to ascertain the race of those mentioned, and those mentioned in the other threads in this sub-forum. However, it is nearly impossible to do so in any systematic way. In most cases, I have only found snippets of information which have lead me to believe someone is/was non-white. There is a possibility that the Hendon Museum may have a partial list (which has been mentioned by one source) but I have been unable to establish whether the names have corresponding race stated. But any confirmed information would be gratefully received on Chat
This is the man who started up the Caribbean Aircrew site .... Blackness & the Dreaming Soul by Cy Grant ( Just as an aside some time ago while looking for a large group of soldiers who joined the Rifle Brigade in WW1 from the US .... I discovered they were all from the Caribbean ..... and all black - the fact noted on the US records but not the British !! )
You've probably seen this already ... but just in case !! .... The men of bomber command: the navigator, Cy Grant - Telegraph
Ah, I hadn't noticed that it was Cy's site. I hadn't seen the newspaper article but have read his book, which I reviewed: http://ww2chat.com/forums/books-films/20-what-you-reading-moment-4.html#post17206
Heres a bit of trivia for you AR ( is this him ?? ) ......... :clapping: Over the years, there has been a lot of speculation about the derivation of the term blimp. The most plausible explanation, experts claim, is that the name originated with Lt. A.D. Cunningham of Great Britain's Royal Navy Air Service. He commanded the air station at Capel, England, during World War I. As the story goes, while conducting a weekly inspection of the station, Cunningham playfully flipped his thumb at the envelope of His Majesty's Airship SS-12 and an odd noise echoed off the taut fabric. "Blimp!" he cried out humorously, imitating the sound. As they say the rest is history. The Goodyear Blimp || Blimp History
And this is how the story got about ...... A young midshipman, who later became known as Air Marshal Sir Victor Goddard, repeated the tale of this humorous inspection to his fellow officers in the mess hall before lunch the same day. It is believed that by this route the word came into common usage.
Annie I had heard this story, but thought it was Goddard who actually tapped the airship and said "blimp!" But if he is quoted as giving the credit to Cunningham, then that is probably the truth.
Did anybody see this ?? ....... I know this isn't Air Crew ... but ....... Stars to celebrate life of black footballer and war hero Stars to celebrate life of black footballer and war hero » Communities » 24dash.com Walter Tull BBC - London - History - Celebrating Walter Tull
Hi Kyt and others, thanks for the compliment. Some points of attention: 1. you can find the story behind the website Caribbean Air Crew in the RAF during WW2 here: Caribbean aircrew in the RAF during WW2 » About us 2. I submitted the comment Adrian Roberts made about specifying the race of these men to Cy Grant today. He replies: " I don't think we should get into the business of distinguishing whether West Indians as black, Indian, Chinese, mixed or white - we are all West Indian we sound alike when we speak- somehting that had struck me when I last visited. West Indians of all colours play cricket against England, India, Pakistan and Australia!!" 3. I was referred to this forum only yesterday and I would like to add the information found here to the listings on our website, which aims to give as complete an overview of Caribbean involvement as possible. I would of course name the forum as a source and make a link to it. I would be happy to get your permission and consent to do this. Many regards, Lilliput
I would like to endorse Lilliput's request. Your forum members have some good info here which we do not have. As of 30 Sep 1942, 1,195 West indians had registered with the West India Committee in London as serving members of HM Forces(Not all were RAF of course)
Lilliput and Jerome, thanks for your kind words and welcome aboard. I look forward to reading more from you. I'll let the mods answer your request but I think it's safe to say we're all for co-operation with quality sites like yours! As an aside, I interviewed a former Lanc mid-upper gunner who served with 514 Sqn and he referred to a West Indian, possibly Jamaican, navigator in his squadron. He also served with 9 Sqn before 514 so I'm not sure what unit he was referring to (should really check my recordings). A long shot, I know, but does the nav ring any bells with you guys?
Hi lilliput and Jerome welcome to the forum. I look forward to your contributions, especially in an area that has too often been forgotten. I see no reason why cross linking between our sites should be a problem - I think both sites will benefit greatly from the sharing of information. Though I respec Mr Grant's opinion I do disagree to a point. What I, and members like Adrian, are interested in is the fact that the vast majority of people do not know that personnel came from all around the world, and that they were not just white descendents of British emigrants. The perceptions that have been held over the last 60 years need to be addressed. My particular interest, because I am of Indian origin, is in Indians (i.e. pre-partition Indian subcontinent) who joined the RAF and RIAF. I often read people's amazement when I tell them about people like Squadron Leader Pujji, a beturbaned Sikh fighter pilot who served in Europe, North Africa and Burma. Though his ethnicity played no part in his skills as a pilot, his absence from the history books until very recently means that people's knowledge of the war is only partial. A classic example of the consequences of this ommission to make the general public aware of the contributions of the different ethnic groups is evident in the anecdote related by Ken Follett about Ulric Cross: Ken Follett | The Black Hornet in particular: Another example would be the contributions made by the African soldiers in Burma. The official, and traditional, histories of the Burma Campaign either omitted or disparaged the contributions made by the black 81st (West African) Division. It is only with the recent publication of War Bush: 81 (West African) Division in Burma 1943-1945, and exhibitions like the We Were There that this is being readdressed. So, in the case of West Indian non-white personnel, I think there is a valid, and important, reason for asking whether they were of a particular ethnic origin. It also helps young black people to understand their history too.
Thank you Jerome. BTW have you seen this old thread on rafcommands? http://www.rafcommands.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=printer_format&om=9627&forum=DCForumID6
Many thanks, Jerome. I'll see if I can get something clearer off my recordings in return. There's also a nav mentioned in one of the chapters of Micheal Veitch's Flak. I'll drag up his name etc.
Specifying race? Dear friends, I'd like to follow-up on the issue of specifying the race of the men listed on our website Caribbean aircrew in the RAF during WW2 » Home. The issue of registration of ethnic or racial background of individuals in the Netherlands is heavily burdened with our history during the Second World War. During the Nazi-occupation of Holland the Germans made good use of public records specifying the Jewish background of citizens. It made it all too easy for them to locate and persecute their victims. The same applied to the Sinti and Roma people (gypsies). That was the reason why efforts of the underground resistance movement in Holland were for a large part aimed at destroying public records, even at the cost of human life. At the outbreak of the war Holland had one of the most advanced registration systems available. This contributed to the fact that of the 140.000 Jewish inhabitants in 1940 a total of 101.800 perished in the camps. That is around 73%, which stands in contrast with other West-European countries like Belgium and France where the number is not above 40%. These traumatic numbers have added to a deep suspicion of the type of record-keeping that specifies race, religion or ethnic background. The British public has a very different view on various aspects of the history of WW2 due to different experiences. The appreciation of Bomber Command is a good example of this. While the actions of Bomber Command are still issue for debate in the UK, many veterans are often surprised and touched by the gratitude they meet when they visit Holland. My father grew up during the occupation and recalls how the large formations of bombers flying over to Germany for them signified a tangible proof of the war-effort against the Nazi occupation. In his part of the country and elsewhere many bombers came down and the incredible number of 55.000 killed aircrew is no abstraction for his generation. The recently broadcasted documentary commemorating the 90th anniversary of the RAF featured but one example of many of memorial services held to the memory of these men. I know of many towns and villages that have a small monument to mark the sacrifices made by crashed airmen, of any background. Cy Grant was one of the men who came down in my father's village after such a raid on Germany in1943. A BBC-report of his visit to Holland this year can be viewed here: BBC - London - History - Failed to Return Does all this mean that we shouldn't specify the racial background of wartime casualities at all? I don't know. I see the need for appreciation and acceptance of the contribution of coloured men and women to the war-effort. But we must be aware that these things shouldn't be taken lightly.
