One of those aircrafts that deserves far more recognition than it gets: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westland_Lysander http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Lysander.htm http://ipmsstockholm.org/magazine/1997/08/stuff_eng_detail_lysander.htm Some lovely structural close ups: http://www.aviation.technomuses.ca/...ig_img.cfm?Lang=e&Model=Westland Lysander III And as usual youtube comes up trumps with a clipped narration: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CRYCx_G25ro
Good article from Flight Magazine from 1939 on Army Co-operation: http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1939/1939 - 1512.html http://www.flightglobal.com/PDFArchive/View/1939/1939 - 1513.html A few nice shots of the Lys.
Today's airworthy Lizzies have some of the rarest airworthy engines in the world in the Bristol Mercury. http://www.irishairpics.com/database/photo/1024109/ Excellent report on flying the Lizzie from Chief Pilot at Old Warden, Andy Sephton: http://www.pilotweb.aero/content/articles/view_article.aspx?id=3038 Can't find any reference to the French machine. Hang on, that might be because it's Belgian and owned by the Sabena Old Timers! #@$%&! Great resto story: http://users.skynet.be/fa452862/hist_uk.htm http://users.skynet.be/fa452862/prevol_uk.htm The Canadian airworthy Lizzie: http://www.warplane.com/pages/aircraft_lysander.html Kermit Weeks has one as well in Florida but don't think she's flown in a while.
Have any of you got a decent picture or diagram showing how the gunner's machine gun (single or double), was mounted and retracted, and what field of fire it had? As far as I can tell, the rear gun mounting was a retrograde step compared with the Lysander's predecessors - no Scarff ring allowing for easy training in any direction. Could the gunner fire directly back over the rear fuselage? (I doubt it) The shot of the Canadian rebuild and the RAF Museum example give very little clue (I've been right up to the RAFM one and as far as I can see the rear gun mountain is not fitted). Contemporary photos are not much use either - probably censored.
Here are a couple more of the venerable "lizzie". View attachment 1333 View attachment 1334 Cheers Owen
Thanks, GD, but no sign of the rear gun mounting. I wonder if these were all removed when the type ceased to be used for Army Co-op and the answer has died with the men who built and flew it. I wonder if Westland still have any plans? Its also noticeable how little room the gunner had - I had assumed he had the whole of the space under the rear canopy, but he clearly didn't. There was decking all round him at waist level. I wonder if more space was created for agent pick-ups - I believe it was sometimes possible to carry two agents?
Another Lysander question: It seems that these aircraft were withdrawn from the Artillery Spotting roles after the fall of France due the heavy casualities involved. In Normandy, the Auster was used in that role (flown by Artillery officers not the RAF) and the Americans used the Piper L4Cub, Stinson L19 Grasshopper etc. These types were even slower than the Lizzie and would have been even more vulnerable, but we had Air Superiority by then. So how was artillery spotting carried out between 1940 and 1944, in North Africa for instance? Did they use aircraft, and if so what type? I believe that Tomahawks were used by Army Co-op units - was artillery spotting one of their roles?
I think some of the Army Co-op units also used Hurris. Can't remember any mention of artillery spotting though.
Adrian Re #5 the only "decent" picture I could find was in Clarke's "British Aircraft Armament: Vol 2". Though actually about the gun sight it does show the limited space available Re: # 9, I couldn't say for North Africa (not too hot on this theatre) but in Burma, artillery and recon was carried out by a mixture of aircraft. One dedicated squadron was 656 Squadron Association (make sure you have the speakers off because the music is very annoying and I can't find the off button). In addition, a number of the RIAF squadrons, using Lysanders, and then Hurricanes, were used for artillery observations. On the western front, a number of Spitfire/Mustang/Typhoon squadrons were assigned artillery observation duties, especially during the DDay/Normandy period
The Lysanders were used by the RAF for flying tactical reconnaissance missions for the Army at the start of WW2 in France. The Free French had two squadrons of Lysanders carrying out reconnaissance in Equatorial Africa in 1942 and the RAF had No.2 PRU in the Middle East under taking the task.
Kyt Thanks for the photo of the gunner. He certainly didn't have a lot of room - looks as though the gun mounting might have had to be pulled forward from a recess behind the rear cockpit to be used. Clearly he could only fire directly rearward if it was possible to pivot the mounting upward. Probably it was always assumed that the Lysander's protection would be from fighter units flying top cover, rather than having to protect itself. This was the situation in WW1 I assume they would have followed that practice. But in the chaos of the May 1940 retreat, it can be imagined that all too often fighter escort just didn't happen.
Though these pictures aren't the clearest (I'm hoping to get some better ones in the next few days) it does show that the gun seem more aimed at sideways, downward or directly upwards firing. The one direction it would problems firing is rearward as the canopy and the tail would get in the way.
Kyt Thanks for finding these. Looks like Westland had abandoned all pretence of having a gunner blasting away at all directions at oncoming fighters, and provided a system purely for ground support. Which would have been fine with a decent fighter escort arrangement. But I believe a Lysander managed to shoot down a He 111 over France during the phoney war, and since I don't think the Mk IIIA with the guns in the wheel spats was in service yet, it must have used the Observer's gun. Adrian
I've heard of a claim by 4 Squadron for a He111, as you say Adrian, but I haven't confirmed it and Shore's Fledgling Eagles makes no mention of such a claim. However, this sounds like an excellent example of the use of the gun: Italian biplane fighter aces - Aroldo Soffritti * Gazette Issue 35124 published on the 1 April 1941 (they've got Burl as Gurl)
Ha, finally found something that shows the gunner. Sorry about the quality but the orginal Flight magazine (1938) scan wasn't brilliant. And it makes for an interesting comparison with the Battle: Fairey-Battle
Thanks, this makes it even clearer. Looks like the observer's seat was further forward than I always imagined, under the fixed part of the canopy, with the gun itself under the sliding hood. I'm not sure what he was supposed to do with his legs when in the prone position though...
Hi Kyt, Try punching " Weird Aircraft " into the computer, the sites will keep you busy for hours. Did you get the Lysander pics I posted to W22 home site ? Cheers Keith
